HSC 2017 Retro Series Rnd 8 - Big Track (BTR) - 09/09/2017

[stoo23]

Well,... "Whilst the Cat's (in Our case the "Fox",..lol) Away",.........
Unfortunately,... there Weren't Too Many,...
"Mice",.. / Chickens,.. / General Rodents etc,.. to,...
"Play"

??

Whilst Low in Numbers, it was (ofcourse), Still a 'typically' enjoyable evening's racing!
Initially with 7 in Each Class, until Joe Retired/Departed, we ended with 6 in both classes.

I Must admit, I Have been a bit Slack,.. for slightly More than Just of Late, with 'Specific' regard to actually 'Building' a New CanAm/Coupe chassis,..
I have a Few, but as far as HSC 'Specific' chassis go, I Really Only have 'Old Faithfull' fully serviceable and constantly running, which IS More than OK, as it drives Really Well around the Big Track, if but perhaps a Few Grams Heavier than could be ideal,..

So,.. also somewhat 'Typical' of late, I left my 'Prep' till the Last Minute, although I did get to the Track Early enough to 'perform' all the required 'Tasks' to get 2 x cars Ready for Both classes!!,..
I Probably Should have tried the Other "retro Hawk" Motor I had in the Coupe, as realistically the one I raced with wasn't really anything to 'Write Home about' !!,.. ,.. but was OK.

I was DETERMINED, to do atleast a Slightly Better Job on this track and Especially on Red this time and in Fact thought I was in the Coupe race, (as Old Faithfull, is pretty good to drive around this track), but realistically, My Overall and individual lane totals Were (on reflection), Lower than what I would have ideally Liked and Hoped for !!,.. ,.. but Hey,.. Onward and Upward !!,.. LOL

Coupe's

Heat 1

Here we had Casey, Gregg, Stevo' and Myself and similarly to Mark's recent choices,.. ,.. chose to start on Yellow.

It Started pretty close, between Casey Gregg and Myself, in the early brackets, but it soon became evident that Casey definitely 'Had Something' on the rest of us Speed wise and perhaps 'typically' he was also doing consistent Totals on All the lanes.

Gregg and I were equal until after the 3rd bracket when he moved ahead (after rather Lower than hoped for totals by myself on White & Red), with (by that stage), Casey starting to Move further ahead of us all having 3 laps on Gregg by the 6th bracket.

Through the 4th to 7th bracket Gregg and I were still having Fun,.. with myself merely 'Trying to Keep him Honest',..lol and got to Withing a Lap, until a Low 18 on Black in the last bracket, put me 'In My Place' ,..

All the while with Stevo' having a reasonable run happily running around,.. 'bringing up the Rear',..

Kinda 'felt' like I coulda/shoulda done Slightly Better than I did,.. ,.. Oh well,.. lol

The Placings,
1st Casey 159 laps
2nd Gregg 154 laps
3rd Darryl 150 laps
4th Stoo 150 laps
5th Stevo' 129 laps

Heat 2

This was a rather Strange and Lonely 'Event', with Only Darryl and Neil running.

Not really Too much to say other than it was odd they Both managed to De-Slot 'In Sympathy' individually and separately at one stage early in the race

They eventually Finished with;
1st Darryl 150 laps
2nd Neil 145 laps

The Final Placing's being;
1st Casey 159 laps
2nd Gregg 154 laps
3rd Darryl 150 laps
4th Stoo 150 laps
5th Neil 145 laps
6th Stevo' 129 laps


F1's

Firstly and somewhat 'Off-Topic', but seemingly Poignant,..
Having arrived this evening, with 2 x F1's, they Made for an 'Interesting' comparison.
One was My First F1 Chassis, (about the 3rd or 4th New chassis I had built, since getting 'Into' Retro) which was and still Is a Very Good Car!
I have Won and regularly Placed Well with this chassis as have Others who have run it.

The 'Other' car, was a (relatively), Newly acquired and built Slick7 chassis, Identical to Mark Fox's recent 'Build' and in fact, to all intents and purposes, is 'Virtually', Identical to His,..... EXCEPT,... (and This Soon leads into the 'Point' I had been Caused to 'Think Upon',.. lol,..), .....

MY Version of The VERY Same Chassis, built (Even IF I DO Say so Myself), to a Very Similar Standard as Mark's, was The First time I tried it,.. Close,.. to one of the Worst Slot cars I have ever driven !!!
Which was somewhat Disappointing considering How Fast and efficient Mark's was proving to be,.. ,.. We 'Conferred' and could Not find any particular 'Wrongness' as such,.. which as suggested, Brings 'Starkly' into focus and one's thoughts, as to JUST How COMPLETELY Different Some / Different and Seemingly 'Identical' chassis can "FEEL" AND Perform !!!

Of the (Now) 3 x F1 chassis I have (especially the first & second Main cars I have run until this recent Slick7 unit),.. they Exhibit Quite Marked and arguably completely Different characteristics, as far as How effective they are at doing What? And Where? compared to each Other a fact Once noticed with them at Raceworld's King !!!,.. lol,... BUT,.. I Did build a 'Copy' of My 2nd and rather Successful F1 chassis some time ago for Troy, which had Virtually Identical 'Characteristics AND Proved to be Easily as Effective Having ultimately being Beaten by it !!,.. lol,.... anyway,... apologies for 'Diverging somewhat,... just had me thinking there,.. for a while,..

Having initially Had a rather disappointing experience' when first 'Trying' MY New Slick7, (with less I guess, at the time far less than Ideal traction), the Car could really Only be described, as a DOG !! Both Ends of the car were doing Bad things !!,.. lol and to make matters worse, it had a rather Ugly 'Bingle' during initial practice, after becoming a 'Rider' on another Lane, which, (as suspected at the time), Did 'Tweak It somewhat !!,..lol

It took quite a bit of 'Fiddling', 'Fudging and Futsing' and a lot of Tweaking and 'Eye-balling',..lol, but It seemed like I had managed to 'fix' it's slight Crash Tweak and,.. as it So proved upon trying it !!,..

As a Side Note,.. it's Just as well that I decided Not to run it last time, as I Discovered, that Somehow ?? I had managed to 'Build' the car with the Overall Front Wheel Width, nearly an 1/8th of an Inch Too Wide !!??,.. WTF ???,..lol Have NO idea how I managed That !!,..

So anyway,.. Now with an 'appropriately' Narrower Front-End and after all the above 'prattle', I had what Now seemed Like a remarkably Nice and rather Quick car,.. ,.. so was at Worst, a Vast Improvement over my Initial 'assessment' !!,.. LOL so was feeling Far happier with My Build,.. Finally,..lol

Heat 1

,... and so, continuing on from above, the Car certainly seems pretty quick,... With 'Promise' !!, ....

Casey and I had a pretty Fast and Close 'Tussle', (He was also having a 'First Run', with a Newly Built car), for Most of the race, until, (Once again, as encountered at one or two Other 'spots'), I Discovered my new car's current slight lack of 'Tune' per-se, by at times Under-estimating the car's Very Short Wheel-base and Guide Lead and had a Poor run in the final bracket on Black, especially coming Out of the Driver's turn,...

There was Only 1 Lap in it Until the Final bracket,.. with once again,.. Stevo' having a consistent run behind us.
It seemed a good 'showing' for 2 x New cars and especially 'satisfying' I am sure for Casey, Winning 'First Time Out', with a New car !!, which, as can be seen from the Pics Below, is a rather Fine and Clean Looking 'Build',..... Well Done!
Is Always a Satisfying feeling !!,..

I have to say,.. as an 'Observation', this Slick7 chassis is So FAST into around the Donut and Up onto the Back straight, that it took me somewhat by Surprise !!,.. lol and that AND it's rather Short 'Length', was meaning that IF I Did manage to Really 'Hook-it-Up', on White or 'God Forbid', Red, it was Getting itself a bit 'Out of Shape' on the Exits !!,.. Short cars Can often be Fast but Invariably also DO require being Driven slightly Differently !!,.. LOL,.. Note to Self,.. Go and Do some 'Testing / Tuning',.....

Great, Fun race,.. I think we all had Fun !!,..
1st Casey 155 laps
2nd Stoo 151 laps
3rd Stevo 125 laps

Heat 2

This was actually quite a Good race and was at times a Far 'Closer' race than the Final lap Totals might suggest.
Even though Gregg T, grabbed and Held onto 1st from the first bracket, Both Neil and Darryl, were 'Right There', in fact the two of them were swapping Places right up until the 5th bracket, when Darryl finally got an advantage of a few extra laps over Neil, whilst Still doing a pretty Good job of chasing Gregg.

There was Only 1 or 2 laps across the first three drivers, until as mentioned above, with Darryl, staying either on the same lap or Only 1 lap down until the end of the last bracket, losing another lap to Gregg.

Observing the cars from my Marshalling Spot, Gregg's just seemed Fast, smooth & Tidy, everywhere, Darryls seemed perhaps, slightly 'Flightier' ?? and Seemed to have Stonkering Final Top End and Neil's car Just Seemed Quick and Was Fast,.. Obviously, (as suggested Above,..lol).

A very Good race really,..
1st Gregg 154 laps
2nd Darryl 152 laps
3rd Neil 147 laps

The Final Placings being;
1st Casey 155 laps
2nd Gregg T 154 laps
3rd Darryl 152 laps
4th Stoo 151 laps
5th Neil 147 laps
6th Stevo 125 laps

All in all, a very Close and Fun F1 race and typically Enjoyable HSC Retro race Event

Congrats to Casey on a Fine and 'deserved' Double Win and thanks once again to James & Co' and the Other Racer's for once again making for a Fun and Enjoyable Evening's racing at HSC.

[Mark Fox]

Thanks Stoo

Wow thats quick out of the blocks for a great report.

Great to come back from a fabulous meal to find a post from my mate on my favorite passion (after fabulous meals with lots of wine and liqueur desserts of course).

I love travelling but seriously do miss the races that I can't attend due to it.

Love the observations on two cars ostensibly the same - hard to work that one out but it goes without saying that they are not the same BUT what are the differences????

Interesting to see 3 JK F1 based chassis reign in F1.

Congrats to Casey on the two wins followed by Gregg and Darryl in both classes.

[stoo23]

Thanks Mark,

yeah,... was just,.. 'In the Mood',.. I guess.

A bit like, as the Famous "Tommy Cooper" used to say,.....

"Just Like That" !!,...

[stoo23]

Love the observations on two cars ostensibly the same - hard to work that one out but it goes without saying that they are not the same BUT what are the differences????

Hmmm,.... yeah,.. exactly !!??

Obviously,.. it is Vastly Improved and is Very Smooth Now. I'll take some Pics and 'Post' them in a Related 'Thread' asap,... simply as a Comparison to yours, for the 'interesting' reasons/observations etc, as detailed above.

There are some Obvious Slight Physical differences, but, as with many of the Other aspects of the Total 'Build' relatively 'Subtle', as even the Body choice is/was the Same, although there May be Some difference in the Fore-Aft Mounting Position ??

We will Have to 'Re-Examine' the Two more closely !!,.. LOL,.. Have a Drive etc,..

I Must say,.. I'm Glad that I have actually Managed to begin putting some Polish on what I initially thought was a Turd !!,..

I Need to (as suggested), Re-Apply / Re-Arrange / Add New/Extra lead, as what is on there was a bit of a rather Rough, Quick 'Fix', with a couple of Good, Fresh bits of 'Self-Stick' lead that I could easily find at the time, 'On-Hand',... I Seriously Need to get the Slot Stuff organized Better !!,..

I think, with what would seem to be an appropriate amount and placement of lead it may be a Gram or Two heavier than yours,.. I think it's like about 116 - 117 at the Moment ??

It was just something I had been thinking about, since the awful 'First Try' with the Slick7 car,..

But as you well know,.. Trying to build 'Replica's' of Any Chassis, No Matter How good you think you may have 'Copied' it, it IS by 'Nature' intrinsically a 'Unique' Piece, as was the Original, so whilst perhaps also being Good,.. may Not 'Feel/Drive' Exactly 'Like' the Original.

I also Built a Semi 'Clone' of Old Faithful for someone some time ago, (although, the Wheel-Base Was Slightly Shorter, but still with the 1" GL) and Whilst actually somewhat Different to drive, was Good, but perhaps Not ultimately As Good as the Original,.. Perhaps, "Close, But NO Cigar",..lol
Would like to have been able to Change it.

Similarly and perhaps almost Even More Exactly 'Similar', were the Two Plafit 'Lexan' Group C cars I built and We ran.
Ostensibly, the Two cars Initially, Were Identical, as initially, I was Using the Same 'Long' Lancia body to Test and attempt to 'replicate' the Previous (Theoretically, Illegal Version I had been running) and in that Mode the differences in 'Feel' and Lap times was Truly 'Marginal'.

By the Eventual Race Setup, there Were Some 'Differences', much of which had to to to the slightly Different Body used, (when compared to the Lancia especially, as it was Very Long, WB & Overall) and a Subtle difference in Gearing, that in Retrospect, annoyed me, for Not getting it as Spot on as perhaps My own car's 'on the day',.. but Hey,..

Considering How Fast I Knew the Initial Car Could be, I think we could have Both run a Slightly Different gear Ratio and Or Tyre Diameter etc, as Both of Our cars (from previous testing and racing experience had shown), Should have been Faster than Troy's Style of chassis 'on the day' !!
Always annoyed me that one 'got away' !!,.. lol

With regard to the Whole 'Replicating 2 x chassis' reference,.. those particular Plafit 'builds', were an Interesting Experience,.. but Is,.. simply by 'nature' of the Style of Assembly and available Parts etc,.. also Intrinsically Easier,.. Perhaps?, to get Closer to building 'Similar Handling Clones', than it is to Cut up 'Bits' of Brass, Steel and Piano Wire and Effectively Solder them Together,.. Exactly the Same !!,.. ,...... well atleast in My Experience,.. LOL

In fact, thinking of Plafit, I did eventually, have 2 x 1300 style chassis that were Almost Identical, that I managed to Change ever so Subtley, so I could seemingly relatively Effectively, Which actual Chassis to run 'on the Night' due to the Available traction Levels,.. which was Handy,..

But, once again, I digress,.. lol

Anyway,.. was just 'One of those' things that 'came to Mind' and caused my "Bwain to do some Thorkeling",..lol,.. and a Rave/Rant that We have had Many times during Our association,..
Especially as one doesn't Always get to Compare 2 x intrinsically Identical type Cars.

[neiljb]

Thanks for the report Stoo,
Enjoyed the reading.
It was a bit lonely at times last night.
It's funny about perception. I thought my F1 was quite slow !??
I have a system to measure car speed. At the end of the race if my hand is sore from squeezing the trigger harder, the car needs a bit more zip. Last night my hand was sore.
Cheers
Neil

[stoo23]

Yeah,.. I can 'Dig' that,..

Well,.. the Car/Driver 'Combo' certainly appeared to be 'Hustling' quite Sweetly,.. Initially,...

I thought the car seemed to 'Track' rather Nicely, Almost Everywhere and as I said,.. for,.. Some reason, it Did,.. 'Look' Quick !!??,..

Just the Old Bugger Driving it !!,..

Mind you I Too can 'Sympathize',.. I seem to have been Driving Quickly into Nowhere myself of late !!,..

[dtslot]

Thanks for the round up Stoo
A good fun night of close racing ( and yes , you know Mark craves to be here in the mix and some of us would love to be indulging in the good life there ) , missed also Brad and Steve,,,,,,,,,hope every one is of good health
Interesting observations about the different chassis performances.,,, I guess my theory is simplistic in that if you put enough weight on the chassis ,,it will stick to the track,,,,,,thats alright on the flat track ,but with retro hawks,which get so hot,,,I try to keep my cars as light as possible,,,,,,,sooo 106 g for can am and 103 g for F1's. .Great for speed but not so much for handling.,,,,,,and as for tire choice,,,,,again I choose hard rubber ,,,just cause I want the least amount of drag on the motors,,,,,boy they get hot!!!!!!
Then again, I have seen Mark race these motors ,,and the motors stay pretty cool,,,,,I really havn't figured the perfect set up for me yet!!!
the track was in great condition ,,as always,,,thanks James for that
Looking forward to the next race at ssme,,,see you there
Darryl

[Mark Fox]

Wow Stoo you are running a lot heavier than me.

Mine comes in after adding weight at just over 100g!

http://forum.ascra.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1295

Scroll to the bottom of this post to see the final configuration.

[stoo23]

Ahh,.. Yeah !

Now that I think about it, you're correct !!

(Will Have to finally get myself some Scales !!),...

As you suggest, It must be about 106 to 107,... WITH the Lead it has fitted to it Now,.. (as it's Not Very Much really).

[neiljb]

Yes weight is important and finding the balance between drivability and speed (as Daryl has discussed) is the trick round the big track.
But that is controlled by the builder.
The difference between motor performance is not (again discussed by Daryl)
I ran a new motor (broken in in the usual way) and was constantly loosing time down the straight. So do I run a new motor ? It might faster it might be slower.
Not calling for any changes, just venting.
BTW this is a new chassis and the lightest F1 I have built

[dtslot]

Good vent Neil,,,,it is no secret that I think the retro hawks are of poor quality basically. I buy a few at least at a time ,,run them in,,,,two different ways,,, water run in ,,or, at 6 V for ever,,,,and of say 3 motors ,,,,maybe 1 come up with 1 that goes ok, maybe its just me,but I have not had the same probs with any other types of motors that I have used in the last 10 years, it is not as satisfying to beat some one if it is only about hp,,,the other night Neil when it was just you and me,, one might have thought I was using a different motor type,,,,such was the difference in speed,,,yet the same motor??????, just my 2 cents worth
I am glad we use the cheetah 4 on the small track,,,,they are very consistant ,power wise, and every one is quick down on the straits,,makes for better racing imo,,,,,,less about the motor and more about the driver
Darryl

[neiljb]

Thanks for your concurring comments Daryl.
I don't have any answers for anyone either. I just wanted someones shoulder to cry on. Its a pity the Plafits don't work on the Big Track. (I suspect the lap time would increase by 50%) as they are very consistent and live for a long time, As demonstrated at the recent 4 hour enduro when not one team had any motor issues. Just a random thought - I wonder if the poor turn out for last week is related to frustration with the Hawk consistency?

[brady]

Hello Gents.Well here I am still awake at 2-00 am wondering why I cant sleep.I think it might be from a gallon to much coca-cola.It could also be from to much worry about Foxy downing to much cherry advocate.Fluffy ducks are the go mate.Anyhow I must apologise for not being there last week.I was looking forward to running my new BT canam.It only weighs 102 grams Stoo.I am interested to know what tires you had on that F1 Stoo because I think Foxy has hit the nail on the head with his tire & rim combo aswell.The tire thing has got me thinking a bit more than usual lately.Anyway cant wait till we meet again, dont know where , dont know when but yus will all be behind me.Regards Brad.

[Mark Fox]

Hi Guys with the slow motors.

I am feeling your pain as I bask in the Andalusian climate of sunshine, flamenco, wine, food and hot persons (who said I would never be PC?).

I really just don't get it as I have bought just 7 of these and they have all won races and set records - particularly on the King. I keep records of these motors and most have done in excess of four or five hours of running.

Some things to note are that they take long time to run in and several of mine were dogs untill at least an hour of running - just get on the track and cane them for a while; the brush tension is affected by heat on the brush arms as excessive heat will anneal these little suckers which will affect performance - thus do not stuff around when soldering the lead wires on - heat the end of the lead wire and then whack it on the terminal quick smart and remove the iron - the lead wire end of the motor/lead wire connection will need more heat than the tiny little motor terminal so this method reduces the brush spring/terminal exposure to heat damage. Gearing, how the car hooks up and tires as Brad has said also take their toll.

Re running in; I use the method as explained by Bryan Warmack - there may be others and variations on the theme which get the same result but this guy knows what he is doing IMHO.

I hope this helps as I know that a s----t motor performance is not on and we should all have fairly equal horsepower or at least understand why we have not. The Cheetah IIs and IVs are great in this regard but remember that increases in speed act exponentially as regards increases in problems/issues and also the Short Track is a real driver/car test whilst horsepower rules to a great degree on the Big Track with about 80% (minimum) of it being straights.

[dtslot]

Hi Mark,,sounds like you are doing it tough, and we miss your presence at the track. thanks for your input regarding the motors. It was through your help that I stopped cooking motors,,,,not locking down the tires and crown gear enough,,,,now I use a bigger handle,on my wrench,,,,end of problem!!!!
About the motors,,,I do have motors that go well,,,and maybe the ones that I disgarded as dogs ,,may still have worth,,,,the bench test alone just might be, not doing them justice,,,,,my fault being a bit lazy..I will also check out the WARMACK run in process,,,,,,,,must be better than my ideas lol
I am still using the slick 7 leed wire clips on the motors ,,,,all my motors actually,,, and have not had any mishaps yet,, so I don't have any heat issues there,,,,,,,yet!!!!!!!
Thanks for your advice and help and mentorring
Darryl