Thoughts Box 12

[lindsayb]

Had a discussion after the OZ day race and we seemed to get a consensus of those that were there that continuing with a weight limit in box 12 was not a sensible thing.

We should be able to race the chassis unmodified without the need to put brass pans and add lead.

So what does everyone else think.

[Timmy Tyler]

It does seem a little silly to have to weight the things up. It introduces something of a complication in that you have to be sure your car is legal at all times. As a result, you have to account for the variation in motor weights, and loss of rubber during a race.

I can't see it turning into a "weight weenie" class, so removing the weight limit would simplify things rather than complicate them.

[lindsayb]

Will throw one more thought out there, and with this one I dont care either way. However as this is our entry level class should we allow shunts on motors.

I think putting shunts on limits some of the newer people and pushes this into a builder class. F2000 guys don't allow shunts and from what I have seen performance does not seem to change greatly without them.

Again thoughts.

[David R]

I think it would be to much of a break away from the US rules , plus with a motor that weighs about 22 grams in the rear a little bit of weight in the front helps balance the car up.
( most W12 chassis come with pans at the front for added weight anyway).

edit - I only need to add about 1 gram to get to the HSC weight of 70 grams with a Slick7 express chassis.
70 grams does seem to be a nice round figure.

[Timmy Tyler]

Will throw one more thought out there, and with this one I dont care either way. However as this is our entry level class should we allow shunts on motors.

I think putting shunts on limits some of the newer people and pushes this into a builder class. F2000 guys don't allow shunts and from what I have seen performance does not seem to change greatly without them.

Again thoughts.

I disagree that this class is "entry level". It is a very difficult class indeed, and requires a great deal of hard work to do well. That's because Group 12 motors are built to a very low price, but we are trying to get consistent high performance out of them. You have to build, test, and rebuild many times over to get a competitive set of motors (and, yes, you need a set). It is a builder class through and through.

Further, if you were to disallow shunts then you would have to do so for GTP12 as well, since it is common to interchange motors between the classes. I have one set of Group 12 motors which get shared out between Wing 12 and GTP12. I wouldn't want to have two sets of motors. These things take vast amounts of time to develop into a competitive program.

Remember, if it ain't broke...

[CAB77]

I don't have a problem with a minimum weight I just think it's to high at 72 grams. I have to add 5 grams to my car to get it fat enough. I would just like to see the weight reduced to allow the style of chassis and motors we are using today. My race this year it has been suggested by a racer that I don't worry about a minimum weight just make it a standard box 12 chassis.

Another point, We weigh the car at race end. If your unfortunate enough to cop a big hit and weight falls off in the last bracket I think it's a harsh penalty to disqualify them from the results. I would like to make a suggestion of a lap penalty per gram that a car is under would be more fitting. Plus if your up by a lap there is nothing stopping a driver stopping on the bell lap and taping a 50 cent piece to the body.

Cheers

[FC RACING]

Got to agree with Tim i don't believe this is an entry level class these motors can be particularly troublesome removing shunts would mean 2 sets of motors, like Tim i use one set of motors to race both GTP & Wing car there are lots more things that are harder to get just right with GP 12 motors than the installation of the shunts.
I like the idea of weight limit there is some difference in the weight of some motors
2-3 grams in some cases this can make quite a difference adding the weight makes it a more level playing field.They also seem to drive better with some weight added to them.
I think if if we have no weight limit it will become a weight weenie Class it's just human nature.

[lindsayb]

So if Box 12 is not the entry level class into wing racing - what is ?

Some how, at some stage we need to come up with a simple entry level class to allow growth.

[Timmy Tyler]

So if Box 12 is not the entry level class into wing racing - what is ?

There isn't one.

Wing racing is really, really difficult which may be one reason why so few people take it up. In fact, slot racing itself is really, really difficult. It would take MUCH more than removing the shunts and the weight limit in Wing 12 to turn around the stagnation in our hobby. It's a far more complex issue.

So far as the technical simplicity (or complexity) of the cars is concerned, I see G27 light as being closer to "entry level" than G12. You only need 2 or three motors and a pretty standard body/chassis/tyres combination to go racing. It takes less time and less money to run G27 light than it does Wing 12.

[Pontiac Jack]

I can see the need for an entry level wing class too,but I don't think changing Boxstock/W12 is the way to go.
Dropping the weight restriction will bring some better 12's up around the performance level of I-15's. But then remove the shunts and they drop back slightly. Do we remove the can bearing as well? That saves a bit of money,but fast blokes will change the oilite every race.
We end up with a kind of "half pregnant" situation. No real improvement in speed,no real cost savings and cars that perform close to what they were originally capable of.
It also puts us out of step with the rest of the wing 12 racing world.
As Tim stated,(and I think we all know this),it takes a lot of work to put together a consistant,high performing W12 program.
No matter what the weight limit is or the motor spec.

MR tried introducing guys to wing racing via W10 a couple of years ago. There were fields of up to 18 racers turning out. The good cars were lapping a tenth or 2 slower than a decent W12.
But they were arse heavy,ate tyres and to be competitive,some blokes were spending MORE than it took to run a W12.
The guys who brought them off the shelf soon got sick of spending $$$ to catch the fast guys. And the class pretty much died.

A couple of people at King Willy's have mucked around with Hawk7/Falcon7 powered cars. They are light,cheap and reasonably quick. I think Geoff said he and Rob were lapping the King in the 3.2-3.3's area. But these motors wont last long on all tracks.

Cheers,Andy

[jazzbell]

Hi guys ,

Not getting off the topic I'd love to know what is any form of entry level .

The king track that has gone in at our club is the biggest waist of space in our commercial raceway at thunderbirds in Adelaide.

When it opened the flexis sold like hot cakes,Saturday numbers for racing are ok,but dropping off now.

The re vamp was supposed to bring the guys back from the old days which it hasn't or I hate to say the guys from the past have past away.

I have a lot to do with the model car national scene in Australia and have know problems attracting numbers for our big events,so question is how do we get the king going here in Adelaide.

Note we have the biggest member base of slot racers here in Adelaide than anywhere in Australia ,we race 3 days a week and have up to anywhere from 50 to 70 guys race every Friday night,it's huge.

So how do we get some of those numbers to the other side.

Regards shane a

Team thunderbird

[chadly]

if u think ur going to make big money in slotcar racing, then you are barking up the wrong tree!

most people into slotcar racing dont have much money. if they did they probably wouldnt spend it on, what is essentially seen as, a toy car!

i think good and cheap is the way to go.
a contradiction in terms, really, but this is how to attract many people (not necessarily how to make money)

[CAB77]

Hi Shane

It's an interesting thing in slot car racing. Plastic racing as it's referred to from our side seems to be popular in local centers likes your raceways and Arm Chair Racer, but it would seem when it comes to national events the support is just not there.

As for the wing car world it seems to be mostly the opposite. I know from my experience it's hard to get people into wing cars at my track with the majority only interested in flexi cars. Guys at my raceway will only own on average 5 cars. Where as from what I have seen guys who race plastic cars will own plenty more.

I race often on a track that is designed for 1/32 cars. Every time I go there I take at least 15 cars and they change every time. I think the hook with scale cars is they look so good and it doesn't cost much to own and maintain a large collection. On the other hand speed costs money. It costs more to own flexi and wing cars and it certainly cost a lot more to maintain them.

I'm a speed junkie and really enjoy racing things that are to fast for more eyeballs. I really enjoy being able to go away and race some of the best slot car people around on different tracks. It's easy to get cars set up for different tracks and the rules are more or less uniformed World wide. 1/32 cars on the hand are the opposite. Rules vary from track to track and are difficult to set up for different tracks. You can sell 5 cars the same and get 5 different performance levels where as flexi cars the performance levels are much closer.

All this is just a personal experience. I have only dabbled in 1/32 cars but from what I have done I have really enjoyed. So many pro's and cons for both. This may not answer your question Shane in fact I'm sure it doesn't. I just think it's interesting issue. I struggle to get people in to 1/32 cars at my track because of my customer base is. My guys are enjoying painting and building cars. I have a couple of guys who are really into 1/32 cars but they race flexi's more often.

[chadly]

Hi Shane

It's an interesting thing in slot car racing. Plastic racing as it's referred to from our side seems to be popular in local centers likes your raceways and Arm Chair Racer, but it would seem when it comes to national events the support is just not there.

As for the wing car world it seems to be mostly the opposite.

yes, money. ppl with little money arent as prepared to spend/travel as much

interesting you talk about not much cross-mix (flexi to plastic 1/32) racers at your track too Adrian

some of the scale cars being talked about are 1/24th with good metal chassis'
an aspect of these cars, that most ppl are into, is putting foamy/sponge tires on them.
sure they go faster but they wear out alot quicker.
i race hard rubber tires. i can get over a years worth of racing in before i have to change them.
this isnt really an issue for some ppl, but can be a game changer for some.
if we changed to sponge tires, i would be doing a lot less racing (and probably have to drop out altogether in some areas).
just one issue facing casual/ammatuer/begginer racers

[dennist]

Adrian, excellent comments from your perspective.

Chadly,

I think you will find that (as per Scaleautro 8 hour events) sponge tires last much longer on a smooth "spray glue" surface all around the world than any hard rubber tires on "sandpaper" type tracks. Australia seems to be the only country I can find that persists with ferrodor tracks.

I have held off answering Shane's post, however my thoughts are that you can't just build a track and expect everyone to come and race a class that has'nt existed in SA for 12 years. Myself and many older racers have moved on to other interests after such a long time of the track being in storage. Yet, like you I would like to attend some National races to reinvigorate the passion and justify some expense.

Looking at all sorts of racers, we need people who have the expertise and passion in various classes to put in the time an effort (BTW you do a great job in MCR Shane) to get race series and enthusiasm up and running.

Sometimes in 1/24th fast stuff, this is the track owner that has the passion ( as in the various commercial tracks in USA, Brasil and Australia) others seem to just establish clubs that race on King Tracks (Germany, Czech Republic, Finland, ,Sweden. Holland etc). These guys seem to attend Wing car races all over the world.

Like a lot of old Redline racers who have have "moved on", I have taken up Archery, Bowls and still play and coach Basketball, but still follow all types of slot racing and would like to compete at the highest level, but I don't have the time I used to have (was on various state slotcar commitees, running a track etc) at my age to organise and promote racing, but I really wish someone has the motivation to get racing going on a great facility in SA.