2012 Geoghegan Trophy

[ozproducts]

The Geoghegan Trophy is coming up on June 30th Sat @ 7.00pm it was down as a group 12 wing car race, BUT it has been changed to Aussie Retro Can-am & F1. The winner of the trophy will be the driver with the most points from the two classes, Entry fee will be $15 per class, Pionts will be 21,19,18,17,16,15 and down by 1 pt for each place, Any questions call the raceway 02 94895816
Wayne

[il cavalino]

Hi Wayne,

Poor old Pete (Ian) and Leo, no one can seem to get their name right.

It is Geoghegan.

Regards,

Geoff

[stoo23]

Hi Geoff,

Being a bit of a 'Geoghegan' Fan myself,..I have 'Edited' the 'post' so it has the Correct spelling.

Cheers and thanks for pointing it out, as I had Not noticed.

Stewart

[il cavalino]

Hi Y'all up there in Sydney.

Just wondering how the Geoghegan went last weekend??

Regards,

Geoff

[stoo23]

Sorry Geoff,..MY Slackness in 'posting' the Race Report !!

Will attend to this very shortly,... it was a Truly Awesome couple of races,..So Fast, Clean and Extremely Close,..Especially in CanAm

[Koford1]

It was a good idea to connect the Geoghegan to a Retro Race and I especially liked the combined point system for both Can Am and F1 to determine the overall Winner of the 2012 Geoghegan Trophy which was Troy Boldy .
A couple of thoughts on the event :
1. With the Touring Car Masters gathering strength in the Aussie 1:1 motoring world, how about a third class for this event making eligible bodies for the class being the cars raced in the TCM. I'm going to play the devils advocate here but make anglewinder chassis eligible for this class.
2. The idea of awarding TQ to the fastest time in a semi or final was a great time saving idea, I was fortunate enough to be awarded this in CanAm.
Points (say 2) could be awarded under the scoring system for each class to add to the total.
I'm looking forward to next years event or maybe a restructured NSW Title for Retro along these lines.
BTW, with racing this close it's crying out for a new Lap counting system.

[Pontiac Jack]

A couple of thoughts on the event :
1. With the Touring Car Masters gathering strength in the Aussie 1:1 motoring world, how about a third class for this event making eligible bodies for the class being the cars raced in the TCM. I'm going to play the devils advocate here but make anglewinder chassis eligible for this class.

G'day Chuck,we have been developing a class here in Melbourne,known as "Aussie Muscle Cars". It was originally a concept Rob Richardson (Chook) and myself were playing with as a way to revive the kind of cars we raced at Tom Thumb,on club nights,back in the early-mid 70's.
D3 cars are nothing like the stuff I grew up on. We wanted something that represented our racing history,not what was being run in the US in the 60's.
These were basic brass and wire anglewinder chassis powered by 16D's,using the popular sedan body shells of the times. ( Porsche 911,Falcon XY-XA,Monaros HT-HQ,Toranas LC-LH,etc.).
We have run 4 races on retro night at MR and the "King Willy 500" on the Williamstown Brown at KW.
See report here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=720

The popularity is really taking off. Chook has a fleet of "hand-out" cars that have helped boost interest. I think Peter Dimmers has put together around half a dozen customer cars as well.
We are using sealed Parma 501 Deathstars,which provide plenty of grunt. And the chassis' range from brand new Tom Thumb repro to modified Slick 7 anglewinders to recycled 70's Group 12 and Group 20 Pacesetter style units.
The cars lap MR's Kingleman in the 4.4 - 4.6 second range. About a second faster than a D3/Retro CanAm.

I can highly recommend this class.

Cheers,PJ

[stoo23]

As Charles has brought these points up in his 'Assumed' role of Devil's Advocate, I thought I Too would take this opportunity to reply, with I DO hope no 'Attitude or Malice' being perceived within the Framework of my comments. And in No way an 'Attack" on or against Charles at all,..just simply that you brought these points up Charles,..I DO Hope you understand and don't take it as an Assault on yourself !!!,..

1. With the Touring Car Masters gathering strength in the Aussie 1:1 motoring world, how about a third class for this event making eligible bodies for the class being the cars raced in the TCM. I'm going to play the devils advocate here but make anglewinder chassis eligible for this class.

Perhaps I May be Alone in this, but even though I too CAN appreciate and was Around and used to attend races at Warwick Farm etc, When these 'Muscle' cars used to actually race, with the Likes of the aforementioned Geoghegan,... and possibly like Charles,..DID actually Race Sedan/Trans-Am style cars of that period,.."Back in the Day",..it was I MUST say though,..with some Very Good and arguably Excellent looking and Detailed Lexan bodies that were available Back then, from the likes of both Lancer and Dynamic.
Those bodies were superbly modelled and arguably pretty damned good Replicas of the Real cars and were Crisp in Molding and Detail,..something I must sadly say is NOT the case with the Incredibly 'Blob' like poorly made and Detail lacking 'Stretched Flexi oriented bodies currently available Locally.

I guess one should Also consider just What 'Period' of supposed 'Muscle Car' we are talking about here,..from My Own past and experiences, it was cars like AMC Javelins, Chevy Novas, Camaros and Mustangs etc,..Typically cars up to around say Early 1970's and invariably of US extraction.

I guess,..at a 'Stretch' and some Years Later,..we could possibly include some of the more Local product, but even though I used to Own a 'Bathurst' model LC Torana,..I NEVER thought of it as a 'Muscle Car' and perhaps arguably under the perceived definition of a Muscle Car am unsure IF it could Truly be described as one.

If we are talking of the Cars WE actually ran back then,..then cars like the Dodge Daytona and 'Superbird' Should be included,..as I know I definitely ran them, along with the Odd Javelin (We, as Team MURA ran one at one of the 8 hour Enduros I recall at Chester Hill once), and Mustang Fastbacks. So Some 'Cut-off' Date would Need to applied, else Many Far more Modern cars could be Included within the Loose 'Term' of "Muscle Car". Even within the framework of the Real 'Muscle Car Masters', it is somewhat difficult to 'Define' exactly which cars/bodies are theoretically allowable under the Broad Banner of Muscle Car,..is it a Classic, Group N, or Later ???

I'm sure this could be worked out,..but IMHO, the Currently available bodies in Australia,..are Truly awful and in some cases, if you were Not 'Informed' as to what the Body was 'Supposed' to be,..you would be Hard Pressed to Guess,...Unlike the bodies we raced 'In the Day'.
Plus Many of the theoretically 'Suitable' Sedan bodies are Very Short in the Nose and as can be seen by some of the cars currently running in Victoria, Many of them have the 'Guide' Protruding out the front of the Body which is something (Appearance Wise) I have Always Disliked and in my opinion, looks Awful !!

There are Many who feel that the CanAm cars are Blob like or Doorstop Wedges,..BUT Especially in Regard to the "TrueScale" and some Others, the bodies,..ARE in fact pretty damned good Replicas of the Cars that actually Raced back then,..(CanAm WAS Like that),...
I agree that perhaps the TI-22's are a bit exaggerated, but within the Framework of and 'Spirit' of the adopted Retro Rules, it is in Fact RETRO SLOT CARS, as Raced back then,..Especially the Bodies,..NOT Retro Model Car Racing and to be honest.

The Other concern, (especially at HSC), is that after the initial sort of 'Boom' that Retro had,..this Class HAS been somewhat 'Struggling' over the more recent past (although not Nearly as badly as the Plafit Series), to at times even Have a Full 8 car field turning up for the regular monthly races !!!
I have some concerns about a dilution of interest and attendance in the Current Inline Class, which has (it has to be agreed, provided some absolutely Fantastic racing over these past few years) !!!
The Numbers have only very recently been somewhat slightly 'boosted' by a few Keen 'New Faces' appearing.

We are ALL struggling financially of late,..(Well atleast I Am !!!), so I am worried about disrupting what has been at HSC atleast, an Incredibly good class of racing.
Heck,..there are currently SO MANY different classes to race at HSC and quite a few people are struggling to Maintain a decent presence in many of the classes,..Let alone the question Once again,..of WHO will be building All these arguably more difficult to build Anglewinders ???

Personally, I believe the Inclusion of the Current Slick7 designs are IMHO NOT appropriate, as they bear absolutely NO relevance or reference to the Style of car as run Back then and are theoretically a Truly Modern Semi EuroSport G12 style chassis,..A Flexi Car is More Appropriate in My Opinion and atleast it is Almost Old enough !!!
And what with the Rules as suggested/adopted by our Victorian Brethren, regarding Style and Size of Front and Rear Wheels, along with the Motor choice,..and the fact that the Bodies Are Stretched/Squashed to Suit Flexis, would seem to Me to be the Simplest and easiest concept,..Ahh,..but then it's Just Another Flexi Class Eh?,....Anyway,..once again,..I digress,..lol

2. The idea of awarding TQ to the fastest time in a semi or final was a great time saving idea, I was fortunate enough to be awarded this in CanAm.
Points (say 2) could be awarded under the scoring system for each class to add to the total.

With Regard to this,..I must say I am TOTALLY Against the Concept,...and NO Charles,..it is NOT because You beat me to the (Awarded) TQ Trophy the other day.
The Problem IS, that Qualifying Was and Should be Used to ascertain one's Position within the Starting 'Line Up' and Lane Choice, something perhaps Sadly Lacking from the Other night's racing. TQ is TQ,...Simple and Plain and In My opinion should Remain so and Only awarded If one actually Has Qualifying!
The argument for perhaps Calling it the Fastest race Lap in Theory Should be possible,..EXCEPT !!! for the Way the Lap Counters/Timers actually Work.

Having chatted to and just this evening 'Verified' the operation with Gary J, quite often, the 'Fastest' Lap of the Bracket, can be the Very FIRST Lap of the New Bracket,..either because the person has placed his car back on Ahead of where it Stopped, OR More Usually, Where his (or Her) car has Rolled to at the End of the Last Bracket, Especially if their car was powering along the straight when the power goes off.
I Do Know this to be True, because of How the Current program works and although I am often arguably Quick and Can turn the Odd Fast Lap, My cars quite Often DO Out Roll the competition and as long as they don't travel that Far as to make the Next 'First Lap' run Under the Set Cut Off time (as set by the Race Co-ordinator) when setting up the Race,..will Invariably Set the Fast Lap of that Bracket.

SURE,..it may Not ALWAYS be the case,..but it often will be and More importantly,..CAN be under the current method of the programs Operation,..so to actually 'Award' someone 'Extra Points' for this,..is in my and Gary's opinion,..Inappropriate. (We Have discussed the possibility of Including the Removal of this First Lap of the bracket "Feature"? from his New System, but as you can imagine, will NOT be altered with the Older Amiga based Systems). If the problem Is fixed in the New Johnson Sytems units,.then it Does make sense and Would be 'appropriate' to Award a fastest Race lap award.

I'm looking forward to next years event or maybe a restructured NSW Title for Retro along these lines.

Well,..Yes,..So am I, although perhaps Not in the Same way as yourself.
Considering the Geoghegan's ran both Sedans and Formula style cars, I tend to Agree with the 'Combined' concept as well as the Retro aspect.

Although with regard to the HSC Retro racing, I am beginning to Question whether we should Continue, with a 'Points' based Championship per se.
The Original 'Bunch' of D3 US racers that started this Retro class do Not Race for Points or a Championship as such,..Each Race is quite Simply,..Just that,..a Race,..All Done and Dusted 'On the Night',..period,..with Nothing Carrying Over to the Next race other than ones desire to Have Another Great Retro Race.

Initially, that is Also How WE raced Retro's,..No Championship OR Points,..Just a Damn good Fun Race 'On the Night' and personally,..I am 'In Favour' of this Idea,..as it Avoids the problem of people not running as the Year goes on,..Because of the Championship,..No Points,..No Sheep Stations,..Just Bragging rights at the end of the Race.
PLUS,..as it would seem that there are Some racers, who for whatever reason can not or decide Not to race at Every round, it makes Each and every race Fair for All and there can be No suggestion that certain people Should Not take Part in the ongoing Regular 'Championship' racing, as has appeared to have happened recently.

Personally I'd like to see as MANY runners as possible at EVERY round, No matter WHO they are or whether they will (in Theory), Win Every round,..Just Makes me want to Drive and Race Better to Try and Beat them !!

There are So Many Other Points Based Classes at HSC to run in, if Championships are your 'Thing',..and Even though a 'Championship Trophy IS Great to Win,..for myself and I'd Venture Many Other Retro Racers,..it Really Doesn't Matter to Us.
The Whole IDEA/SPIRIT of the Retro D3 racing was simply to have some Great racing with Your Mates and racing Buddies, with cars that (like We did),..Built Yourself,..Simple as that,..Great, Fun Racing,.."On the Night"

BTW, with racing this close it's crying out for a new Lap counting system.

Really???,..in what way??,..in what regard is the Current System Inadequate??

Anyway,..apart from being typically 'Long Winded' in my usual manner,.. I think that has 'Covered' the Various points raised and some others that I believed needed raising/commenting on.

Cheers and regards and may the Great Retro racing we have been having continue !!!

[Pontiac Jack]

Stoo, my suggestion with regard to Aussie Muscle Car, would be;
Before getting bogged down in rules, build a couple of cars, run them into the ground, find out what works and take it from there.

The rules we use are very loose and based on an attitude of "Get it on the track and HAVE A BIT OF FUN !!"

A couple of basic rules apply such as clearance,width,brass and wire chassis only and sealed Parma 501 motor,but everything else is a bit of a free-for-all.
Chook and I agreed early on that we would make the minimum rear tyre diameter .780 so we could use our old D3 tyres, which otherwise sat in the bottles drying up.
We also agreed to eliminate a couple of body styles.
These include the Javelin, Dodge Daytona/Plymouth Superbird, Monza, XD > Falcons, Commodores, Mazda RX7, even the Porsche 911 was bounced.
We tried to keep to body styles that WE (Chook and myself) used to use way back when....Most are cars that ran in Australian Touring Car Championship events between '68 - '75.

The Dodge Daytona pictured in the KW500 race report was done as a joke for a bloke we raced against in the 70's.
It ran on the day because that race was held purely for a bit of fun.
I agree that the currently available sedan bodies are pretty bloody ordinary, but they are CURRENTLY AVAILABLE, so we have use them.
If anyone has a stash of Colin McDonalds original MCD bodies out there in their shed, let me know!!

My XA Muscle Car:


Tom Thumb Repro chassis:


The whole idea behind these cars was to re-create the kind of stuff we ran at Tom Thumb in the early - mid 70's.
It was originally just match racing between the two of us.
We would belt around for a hundred or so laps swapping the lead and having a laugh.
Then Chooks boys got a couple of cars and Jack Couche thought it looked like fun and joined in, then Peter Dimmers and next thing you know, we're running them on Retro night but it's still based pretty much on "run what ya brung" and have a laugh while you're doing it.

THe Slick 7 chassis thing kind of gave me the 5h1ts at first, but there are folks out there who either can't or don't want to scratchbuild their own. But they want to be involved in the fun, so we allow them to run.
No big drama really. If you wanted to build a GTP-12 style chassis and run it, no problem. as long as it's brass and wire, it's OK.

If you want to play with ancient Flexi's, Chook and I have another "Private" class we call The Paunsche Cup.
That involves any pre Cheetah 7 chassis, the hottest small diameter S16D motor you can build and which ever Porsche body style we choose on the day.
We jump on the track and thrash 'em till they fall to pieces or the arm expires.
No winners, no losers, just heaps of fun and loads of laughs!!

Cheers, PJ

[RICHO]

Hi All,
Muscle Car Master has kicked off well with a full field for the first round of a 4 round series.
The Retro Nats at M.R on November 10 will include Muscle Car Masters as a class.
Join in the fun and see if you can outbuild and outrace your Southern Bretheren.
Here is a link to the rules;
http://www.mrslotcar.com.au/race/showthread.php?t=2189

The bodies used in this class exclude some period cars due to a percieved Aero advantage, also to keep the flavour of the class as to what raced in ATCC 1:1 racing in 1968-74 and what is racing in Muscle Car Masters now.

The sunset bodies used in the approved body list are the exact same ones that you could buy in 1974.

Most people these days can relate to XY GTHO's, L34's, MACH 1 Mustangs, LJ GTR XU1's and the like, because they grew up with them, saw them on the street and on the TV racing, or maybe they had one or Dad had one.
Dodge Daytonas and AMC Javelins are percived as being too slippery and simply don't cut it as nostalgia fodder except to someone that raced one back in 19??

We are trying to appeal to a broader audience than just those of us that were racing slot cars back in the day, otherwise it would be a pretty slim field.

Three blokes that raced in State, National and Club events in 1974 put this concept together, simply put; Up to 1974 Muscle and touring car bodies with sealed 501 16D's, a brass and wire chassis and not much else.

I've not seen such enthusiastic acceptance to a new (old) class before, blokes are buying up jigs and soldering irons and having a go at scratchbuilding for the first time, others are putting togehter slick 7 kits, some have blown the dust of a 1973 chassis, others are having cars built for them.
BTW; the fastest car in this class to date, outperforming modern slick 7, and many other designs is a 1973 Tom Thumb repica chassis virtually identical to the one in Andy's photos (because Andy also built it).

Chassis design? Open slather just wire and brass,
and if you think you can build a Kick arse 2012 C.A.D designed floating pan, pillow blocked bullet that will wipe out the competition, go for your life!

Thank's to Chuck for starting this topic, your idea and what the southerners are doing align perfectly!
It's all Good!

Cheers,
Rob

[lindsayb]

In terms of what we used to run and I go back to the late 60's - apart from the recent retro stuff I have never raced an inline motored car.

I would love to go back to angle winders in retro specs. Brass, wire an maybe mandate sidepans - else people like me will build perimeter based chassis's.

[il cavalino]

Hey Lindsay,

I probably pre-date you bacause I can remember running inline, but it was in the mid to late sixties.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Retro people in the U.S choose inline because it was "easier" to build an inline chassis than a sidewinder. Now given that the number of people who actually build a chassis from scratch is negligible, ie most start with a kit a sidewinder shouldn't be a problem.

No doubt Stoo will have a response!!

Geoff

[SlotBaker]

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Retro people in the U.S choose inline because it was "easier" to build an inline chassis than a sidewinder.

No, they picked an era.
Over there in around 1969, the inliners were progressivly were being clobbered by the angle winders as they quickly became the 'gun' weapon of choice.
They picked 1969 as the cut off and inliners to reminisce that era.

[il cavalino]

Thanks Steve,

Your memory is way better than mine!!!

Could it have been diffferent over here, because I can remember using Can Am bodies in the late sixties and we definitely used sidewinders.

Regards,

Geoff

[SlotBaker]

I was out of slot cars by about '68~69 (100 octane Fleetwing, and girls etc) and going from what I've picked on the forums, the angle winders first hit the planet in the U.S. in 1/32 scale in the midwest, around '69 and was quickly picked up by the 1/24 scale guys killing off inliner jail door cars.

I kept buying the slot car magazines for a while, and remember seeing angle winders in publications in 1970 when I stopped buying them, so I'm not sure when angle winders made it down here, but I'm guessing late '69 early '70

It's not that my memory of the 60s is any good, only that I followed the development of D3 Retro from it's inception, and got to read all of the to and fro of developing the rules.

They obviously picked on CanAm bodies because they were the big movers of the day in motor sport and they were also the 'scale' slot car body that handled the best.