The power outage at this year’s 2011 Nats at King Willys and the battery and charger problems at the 2010 Brock at King Willys were both unfortunate. It was also unfortunate at the 2010 Nats at Rocky that a circuit breaker tripped and interrupted a G7 Open race. But all preventable!
But I struggle to understand why the discussion in the other forum is hovering around the competency of the JRS computer lap counting system. Because the JRS system has the ability to recall the last bracket after any power outage! And if the Raceway doesn’t have a computer system with a “Race Save” option, then that is not the fault of the computer system.
The problem with these occurrences is ELECTRICAL! It’s directly related to the amount of power the Switchboard can handle under heavy load within the Raceway. The computer systems are fine if we have power to them all the time. So it’s more an issue of whether the Raceway switchboard can cope with the power needs at a National event!
There are two types of power outages that could affect a race meet.
1. Inadequate power at the switchboard or overloaded power points within the Raceway. Eventually it leads to a circuit breaker tripping and possibly taking out the Computer system which is on the same breaker.
2. A total power outage (blackout) due to faults outside the Raceway.
Point 1 is fixable. Get an electrician well before your next major event and have him evaluate the available power in the switchboard and measure it against the expected current draw at the race meet. Next, update your computer system/software that has a “Race Save” option, and possibly add a UPS (Un-interruptible Power Supply).
Point 2 is unfortunately not fixable! You’ll have to wait out the blackout until the local Power Company re-instates the power and you are good to go. And if you had the “Race Save” option selected before the race started, and or a UPS, then you can restart the race.
Recording the race screen has merit! Because in the event of lightning strikes or huge spikes associated with power surges, backup systems can also become vulnerable and equipment can be damaged. So the last resort could be, “let’s roll the video tape!”
Power outages
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il cavalino
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:35 am
Re: Power outages
Peter,
I think you are missing the point, the issue is not so much with the JRS system itself but the Amiga "Computer" that is required to run it.
It is a twenty year old computer and they don't last forever plus supply is limited.
We don't use a twenty year old computer and system for the other needs of our business and personal use so why are we still using one for our tracks.
Geoff
I think you are missing the point, the issue is not so much with the JRS system itself but the Amiga "Computer" that is required to run it.
It is a twenty year old computer and they don't last forever plus supply is limited.
We don't use a twenty year old computer and system for the other needs of our business and personal use so why are we still using one for our tracks.
Geoff
Re: Power outages
The message from the unfortunate power outages is not the electrical aspect, anyone can work that one out.
Its an aged application on an aged computer, great in it's heyday, but Peter if you potentially have 33 entries for the OMO race in the Brock,you not only want a failsafe system you will need auto race seeding into the required number of qtr. finals, consi's and semis. That feature whilst in the current JRS system has been unstable in the past and generally crashes when it is used.
Support the local product by all means, its been bloody great in the past and I think Geoff's dollars may have gone there if it were available for the Nats.
From the Racer's perspective, and you have to race to experience this, there is no joy in a delayed restart, just grumblings which sour the event.
For todays track owners I'd recommend a proactive stance by investing in modern hardware and software, to push back is Russian Roulette.
Its an aged application on an aged computer, great in it's heyday, but Peter if you potentially have 33 entries for the OMO race in the Brock,you not only want a failsafe system you will need auto race seeding into the required number of qtr. finals, consi's and semis. That feature whilst in the current JRS system has been unstable in the past and generally crashes when it is used.
Support the local product by all means, its been bloody great in the past and I think Geoff's dollars may have gone there if it were available for the Nats.
From the Racer's perspective, and you have to race to experience this, there is no joy in a delayed restart, just grumblings which sour the event.
For todays track owners I'd recommend a proactive stance by investing in modern hardware and software, to push back is Russian Roulette.
Regards
Chucky
Chucky
Re: Power outages
Geoff is spot on the amiga computer it self is at the end of it's reliable life and the fear of the machine it's self ceasing to work at some point during an event is why we are changing over to a PC system
Always the Hydrant, Never the Dog
Re: Power outages
To put this in the right place
Just to churn in, regardless of whether we have an amiga or pc, a power failure shuts it down hard.
UPS should give us time to fix breaker issue on the mains
http://www.expresspcparts.com.au/Items/ ... eld-1200va
This unit - under $200, should keep a computer running for 10 Minutes, if the monitor is not on the system.
Or alternative - if we have a windows based system - run it on a laptop.
Just to churn in, regardless of whether we have an amiga or pc, a power failure shuts it down hard.
UPS should give us time to fix breaker issue on the mains
http://www.expresspcparts.com.au/Items/ ... eld-1200va
This unit - under $200, should keep a computer running for 10 Minutes, if the monitor is not on the system.
Or alternative - if we have a windows based system - run it on a laptop.
Re: Power outages
peter can you point me to the other forum please
RARA
RARA
-
il cavalino
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:35 am
Re: Power outages
Hi Guys,
3 replies and none of them have hit on the real remedy. All a close second but no Cigar!
Consider this, What if there was no power outage/failure at either King Willys or Rocky?
Hmmm, I guess there would have been no stoppages!
Hmmm, and the Racers wouldn’t have had to endure another frustrating race delay brought on by something that costs nothing to fix!
Hmmm, there would have been no discussion here on the forum about the age and possible retirement of the old Amiga systems that most of us run.
The power outages and the old computer systems at the King Willys and Rocky Nats has brought about a rugged discussion on what’s necessary when hosting a National event. And I think you’ll find I haven’t missed out on any points!
Yes, each Trackowner needs to ensure that in the event of a Power outage or computer issue, there is a reasonable method of resuming the un-finished race. And Trackowners need to confirm there Raceway is able to cope with the high demands of power on their respective Electrical Switchboards. And most of all that we have Rules to cover such occurrences.
Quotes from other posts...
“If we had a look at what happened at Geoff's the power outage occured in the sixth bracket and because there is no back up system they reverted to running another race and adding totals together.”
Not wholly correct! Geoff had the screen video recorded. An antique idea, but an effective back up none the less! If we go one step further, why wasn’t the latest JRS software installed that stores the last bracket (Race Save function)? I’m sure G.J would make a copy available. Geoff could have videotaped the race instead!
“The upshot was that the Race Director had a fairly robust conversation with one competitor who disputed the "Mathematics" behind the final placings, this was unpleasant for all, plus it looks unproffessional when we resort to adding up lap totals on a piece of paper.”
Completely agree. Totally unprofessional and amateurish! Shame we didn’t have rules to cover such a mishap, then there would be no arguements.
“I'm more concerned with the reputation of Aussie Slot Car Racing at wing car level.”
Ditto! With the fantastic efforts Wayne B is doing to secure some of the best Wing Car racers from overseas to M.R at the “Australia versus The World” 2011 Brock Trophy, this makes us look un-professional. And this is not the first time our reputation has been tainted due to “power” issues!
“Just curious to know if there are plans for a new lap counting system to be installed for the Brock race. If not, could you confirm that the lap counter won't suffer the same fate of Rocky and King Willys when there is a power failure.”
-In the event of a “Total Blackout”, there will be no racing, as everything will be off, including the lights and heaven forbid, the griller in Deb’s kitchen! But the evidence of where we were during the race has been recorded on our DVR system. And the last bracket will also been saved on the Amiga through the “Race Save” feature. So a re-start from the last bracket is no problem! And from what I know about the JRS system, we can re-start from bracket 6 if we have to, by running a 3 bracket race. So there is no waiting for the 6th bracket to come around.
-The notion of an internal Power Failure at M.R is highly unlikely. Because we installed a separate 3 phase sub-board under the Blue King prior the 2008 Nats at M.R. It proved that we were able to cope with running two major events simultaneously and a Drag racing comp on the Easter Friday too!
-A new lap counting system has been on the cards for a long while, and Garry “giddy-up” Johnson has promised the new system well before the 2011 Brock in October. And without getting too cocky, we could see a version before the Winter Nats.
“We've been fairly relaxed about using the existing system in the past, but with computer crashes during the last 2 Nats the writing is well and truly on the wall for a repalcement system”
Again, not exactly correct. They weren’t computer crashes; they were caused directly by power faults. But totally agree that the systems currently in use are in need of upgrading (as mentioned above).
“you not only want a failsafe system you will need auto race seeding into the required number of qtr. finals, consi's and semis. That feature whilst in the current JRS system has been unstable in the past and generally crashes when it is used.”
We have never used it! We have always seeded the races manually.
”From the Racer's perspective, and you have to race to experience this, there is no joy in a delayed restart, just grumblings which sour the event.”
I think Trackowners face a greater internal struggle with equipment failure. Becasue it places an “X” against the Raceway each time it happens. And that’s why Peter D. and I have always many months in advance, discussed and planned general maintenance issues prior all major events.
So what about rules covering the above issues? In our forum I have included the following to the General rules covering Power Outages. Any comments on this will help establish an early set of principles if we need to use them at the Winter Nats.
POWER OUTAGES / COMPUTER FAILURES
In the event of a Power outage or a Computer system failure. All cars must REMAIN on the track where they stopped! Any racers that are working on their cars in the Pits must cease work immediately and place the car back on the Track (Park Ferme). Absolutely no work is permitted on the cars! A minimum time will be set by the Race Director to allow the power to come back on-line. If the time has expired and the power has not yet been restored, the Race Director may deem it's too late at night to resume racing. So the event can be postponed till the next morning. In this case the Race schedule will be adjusted accordingly.
When the power is restored, all cars must be replaced at the start line to recommence the same bracket when the power outage occurred. Racers can only work on their cars under "Green Light" conditions. The computer system should have had a means of recording and saving the race after each complete bracket. Or where available, if the Race screen has been videotaped / recorded, then the race will resume from the start of the last bracket according to the video tape replay or the computer system. The laps will then be added from the first half of the race to the laps recorded in the second half of the race. The winner will be determined in the usual way, by the greatest number of combined laps plus the 'bell' lap.
Where the Raceway doesn't have a means of video recording the Race screen, or a Computer system with the "Race Save" feature. Then the Race Director must note down the race laps after each bracket as manual fail safe.
It is the responsibility of the Host Raceway to put in place such equipment or measures, to ensure that a race can continue even after a power fault or computer malfunction.
On another note regarding the UPS. Don’t be fooled thinking this is the ultimate saviour for windows based PC’s. In our Raceway we run 4 PC’s. And over the years we have seen problems such as internal power supplies failing, motherboard faults, hard drive issues and countless other reasons why the PC failed. All of which would not be helped if we had a UPS !!!
The only answer is good maintenance and upkeep of your Raceway equipment! PERIOD !
3 replies and none of them have hit on the real remedy. All a close second but no Cigar!
Consider this, What if there was no power outage/failure at either King Willys or Rocky?
Hmmm, I guess there would have been no stoppages!
Hmmm, and the Racers wouldn’t have had to endure another frustrating race delay brought on by something that costs nothing to fix!
Hmmm, there would have been no discussion here on the forum about the age and possible retirement of the old Amiga systems that most of us run.
The power outages and the old computer systems at the King Willys and Rocky Nats has brought about a rugged discussion on what’s necessary when hosting a National event. And I think you’ll find I haven’t missed out on any points!
Yes, each Trackowner needs to ensure that in the event of a Power outage or computer issue, there is a reasonable method of resuming the un-finished race. And Trackowners need to confirm there Raceway is able to cope with the high demands of power on their respective Electrical Switchboards. And most of all that we have Rules to cover such occurrences.
Quotes from other posts...
“If we had a look at what happened at Geoff's the power outage occured in the sixth bracket and because there is no back up system they reverted to running another race and adding totals together.”
Not wholly correct! Geoff had the screen video recorded. An antique idea, but an effective back up none the less! If we go one step further, why wasn’t the latest JRS software installed that stores the last bracket (Race Save function)? I’m sure G.J would make a copy available. Geoff could have videotaped the race instead!
“The upshot was that the Race Director had a fairly robust conversation with one competitor who disputed the "Mathematics" behind the final placings, this was unpleasant for all, plus it looks unproffessional when we resort to adding up lap totals on a piece of paper.”
Completely agree. Totally unprofessional and amateurish! Shame we didn’t have rules to cover such a mishap, then there would be no arguements.
“I'm more concerned with the reputation of Aussie Slot Car Racing at wing car level.”
Ditto! With the fantastic efforts Wayne B is doing to secure some of the best Wing Car racers from overseas to M.R at the “Australia versus The World” 2011 Brock Trophy, this makes us look un-professional. And this is not the first time our reputation has been tainted due to “power” issues!
“Just curious to know if there are plans for a new lap counting system to be installed for the Brock race. If not, could you confirm that the lap counter won't suffer the same fate of Rocky and King Willys when there is a power failure.”
-In the event of a “Total Blackout”, there will be no racing, as everything will be off, including the lights and heaven forbid, the griller in Deb’s kitchen! But the evidence of where we were during the race has been recorded on our DVR system. And the last bracket will also been saved on the Amiga through the “Race Save” feature. So a re-start from the last bracket is no problem! And from what I know about the JRS system, we can re-start from bracket 6 if we have to, by running a 3 bracket race. So there is no waiting for the 6th bracket to come around.
-The notion of an internal Power Failure at M.R is highly unlikely. Because we installed a separate 3 phase sub-board under the Blue King prior the 2008 Nats at M.R. It proved that we were able to cope with running two major events simultaneously and a Drag racing comp on the Easter Friday too!
-A new lap counting system has been on the cards for a long while, and Garry “giddy-up” Johnson has promised the new system well before the 2011 Brock in October. And without getting too cocky, we could see a version before the Winter Nats.
“We've been fairly relaxed about using the existing system in the past, but with computer crashes during the last 2 Nats the writing is well and truly on the wall for a repalcement system”
Again, not exactly correct. They weren’t computer crashes; they were caused directly by power faults. But totally agree that the systems currently in use are in need of upgrading (as mentioned above).
“you not only want a failsafe system you will need auto race seeding into the required number of qtr. finals, consi's and semis. That feature whilst in the current JRS system has been unstable in the past and generally crashes when it is used.”
We have never used it! We have always seeded the races manually.
”From the Racer's perspective, and you have to race to experience this, there is no joy in a delayed restart, just grumblings which sour the event.”
I think Trackowners face a greater internal struggle with equipment failure. Becasue it places an “X” against the Raceway each time it happens. And that’s why Peter D. and I have always many months in advance, discussed and planned general maintenance issues prior all major events.
So what about rules covering the above issues? In our forum I have included the following to the General rules covering Power Outages. Any comments on this will help establish an early set of principles if we need to use them at the Winter Nats.
POWER OUTAGES / COMPUTER FAILURES
In the event of a Power outage or a Computer system failure. All cars must REMAIN on the track where they stopped! Any racers that are working on their cars in the Pits must cease work immediately and place the car back on the Track (Park Ferme). Absolutely no work is permitted on the cars! A minimum time will be set by the Race Director to allow the power to come back on-line. If the time has expired and the power has not yet been restored, the Race Director may deem it's too late at night to resume racing. So the event can be postponed till the next morning. In this case the Race schedule will be adjusted accordingly.
When the power is restored, all cars must be replaced at the start line to recommence the same bracket when the power outage occurred. Racers can only work on their cars under "Green Light" conditions. The computer system should have had a means of recording and saving the race after each complete bracket. Or where available, if the Race screen has been videotaped / recorded, then the race will resume from the start of the last bracket according to the video tape replay or the computer system. The laps will then be added from the first half of the race to the laps recorded in the second half of the race. The winner will be determined in the usual way, by the greatest number of combined laps plus the 'bell' lap.
Where the Raceway doesn't have a means of video recording the Race screen, or a Computer system with the "Race Save" feature. Then the Race Director must note down the race laps after each bracket as manual fail safe.
It is the responsibility of the Host Raceway to put in place such equipment or measures, to ensure that a race can continue even after a power fault or computer malfunction.
On another note regarding the UPS. Don’t be fooled thinking this is the ultimate saviour for windows based PC’s. In our Raceway we run 4 PC’s. And over the years we have seen problems such as internal power supplies failing, motherboard faults, hard drive issues and countless other reasons why the PC failed. All of which would not be helped if we had a UPS !!!
The only answer is good maintenance and upkeep of your Raceway equipment! PERIOD !
Re: Power outages
You could run a back up generator....
Then a backup generator for the generator....
Then ......
Keeping raceway equipment in good order is fundamental to good business practice, and I'm sure most operators do that otherwise their business will suffer.
JRS on Amiga is still a good program for most requirements, and I'd be happy if there was a direct upgrade to PC. Obviously, there are other desirable features that could be incorporated, but the prog is OK as it is.
Power outages from the utility supplier are more difficult to overcome, and this is where a solution is required.
Maybe full battery powered everything?
Then a backup generator for the generator....
Then ......
Keeping raceway equipment in good order is fundamental to good business practice, and I'm sure most operators do that otherwise their business will suffer.
JRS on Amiga is still a good program for most requirements, and I'd be happy if there was a direct upgrade to PC. Obviously, there are other desirable features that could be incorporated, but the prog is OK as it is.
Power outages from the utility supplier are more difficult to overcome, and this is where a solution is required.
Maybe full battery powered everything?
Steve King
Re: Power outages
Regarding re-starts, Peter D and I did some testing with the JRS system yesterday to see exactly how well the "Resume" feature works.
This is what we did ...
The "Race Save" option was selected just prior starting the race. We had cars on all lanes running around at low voltage so they wouldn't come off! (unlike a real race !) We allowed the race to continue thru to the middle of the 4th bracket and then pulled the plug on the Amiga. After restoring power to the Amiga, all cars were brought back to the start line.
The "Resume" option was selected, and the race screen went back to the start of the 4th bracket. We then hit the "Start" button and the countdown commenced..... "GO" The cars then left the Start line one at a time according to how they were separated on the track at the end of the 3rd bracket. That was really cool to see. The race report then had all the race details without having to add one race to another!
And how clever is Mr. G.J. to have incorporated such a feature. This man is light years ahead of his time!
This is what we did ...
The "Race Save" option was selected just prior starting the race. We had cars on all lanes running around at low voltage so they wouldn't come off! (unlike a real race !) We allowed the race to continue thru to the middle of the 4th bracket and then pulled the plug on the Amiga. After restoring power to the Amiga, all cars were brought back to the start line.
The "Resume" option was selected, and the race screen went back to the start of the 4th bracket. We then hit the "Start" button and the countdown commenced..... "GO" The cars then left the Start line one at a time according to how they were separated on the track at the end of the 3rd bracket. That was really cool to see. The race report then had all the race details without having to add one race to another!
And how clever is Mr. G.J. to have incorporated such a feature. This man is light years ahead of his time!
Re: Power outages
This is a great feature in the software you have, and would have saved a lot of angst at both Nats. if the track owners knew that it existed. The software at KW and Rocky may not have had the same feature. From memory there were different versions and even some were pirated.
Furthermore some systems mightn't have had the memory capacity to run this feature.
Peter, at the end of the day it's your event, which by all accounts should attract huge interest as It's a once in a lifetime opportunity to race against the world's best without having to travel O/S.
Appreciate the self certification work, but lets be honest, the racer's are now looking for an improved system and by pulling in this direction your business should benefit considerably.
Furthermore some systems mightn't have had the memory capacity to run this feature.
Peter, at the end of the day it's your event, which by all accounts should attract huge interest as It's a once in a lifetime opportunity to race against the world's best without having to travel O/S.
Appreciate the self certification work, but lets be honest, the racer's are now looking for an improved system and by pulling in this direction your business should benefit considerably.
Regards
Chucky
Chucky
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il cavalino
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:35 am
Re: Power outages
Hi Charles,
Spoke to Carl the other day and his "Race Save" feature does not work, nor does mine. I think you need an Amiga with a hard drive to be able to use this feature, and as we all know if yours doesn't have a hard drive you can't just go down to the computer store and buy one.
As we also all know all PC's have memories.
Best of luck at the Plafit nats .
Geoff
Spoke to Carl the other day and his "Race Save" feature does not work, nor does mine. I think you need an Amiga with a hard drive to be able to use this feature, and as we all know if yours doesn't have a hard drive you can't just go down to the computer store and buy one.
As we also all know all PC's have memories.
Best of luck at the Plafit nats .
Geoff
Re: Power outages
Still no Cigar!
The "Race Save" feature we trialed was on a disk based machine.
We don't have a hard drive version.
The "Race Save" feature we trialed was on a disk based machine.
We don't have a hard drive version.